Curse

[DE] · Apr 08, 2007, 05:24 AM // 05:24

My magic eight ball said "It is decidedly so."

Hey, who can argue with the magic eight ball?

Winstar · Apr 08, 2007, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird71

No, at this time, I would not buy GWEN.

GWEN promises unique PvE content with new PvE only skills.

For some time now, the regular game updates have geared skills and game mechanics more towards PvP, without regard for PvE.

From this I conclude that the stance of Anet is to give PvP what it wants for free, and charge PvE for their "balanced content."

I don't feel like playing that game, so unless I see some changes in Anet's philosophy, no, I'm not buying it.

Also, I'm not particularly crazy about GW2 at the moment. I realize that very little has actually been released regarding it, and maybe it's just me, but from what I've seen, it feels too much like a WoW clone. There's a reason I play GW instead of WoW, and it's got nothing to do with monthly fees.

Maybe I'll just go play offline games until the Firefly MMO comes out...

Once again.........

Please stop kidding yourself with the idea that Anet cares more about PvP than PvE. You may or may not like the nerfs, but that doesn't take away from the fact virtually all the content of guildwars is produced for you the PvE'er. For once, FINALLY, Anet does something to help balance skills which is pretty much one of the only things that we ask and one of the only thing that matters for PvP and you get comments like this and bucket loads like them. Oh and how much emphasis was there on PvP in the big news about guildwars article in PcGamer...hmm..maybe 2 sentences.

Please remove head from ass now. Please, its not too late.

blackbird71 · Apr 08, 2007, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Shiz

PvE doesn't need to be balanced unless it's something obviously and OVERLY unbalanced which isn't very often.

If all PvErs think like you I'm sorry but Anet is going to be in ruins very quickly. They've ruined PvP and you PvE people think all they care about is PvP...they're losing everybody right and left.

And when all PvPers think like you, that the PvP game must seek a "balance" (which does not exist, btw, unless all characters are identical), then the whole game goes down the tubes fast, ala SWG. Do a little research on what has happened in other games when PvP "balance" becomes the driving goal behind game evolution. I'll agree they are losing people left and right, but not for the reasons you think.

P.S. I wasn't referring to having PvE "balanced" like players want for PvP, I was more referring to having a balance of attention between PvE and PvP from the devs, sorry if I wasn't clear enough before.

Winstar · Apr 08, 2007, 05:47 AM // 05:47

If there is any imbalance, it is already towards PvE.

Btw, game balance is possible to the extent to which it is required. The kind of game balance that is possible isn't chess, its something along the lines of Magic. A competative game can be balanced while having diversity. Magic doesn't require the reduction of all pieces of the colour pie to one, nor does GW.
What matters, and what PvP players want imo, is a game where skill counts at least as much gimmicks and where are variety of build concepts are playable in the metagame (at least I prefer this later thing).
I don't think you have to turn GW into a form of chess to fix it, but its a good thing to fix blatent and obvious problems when they arise.

blackbird71 · Apr 08, 2007, 05:54 AM // 05:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

If there is any imbalance, it is already towards PvE...

Btw, game balance is possible to the extent to which it is required. The kind of game balance that is possible isn't chess, its something along the lines of Magic. A competative game can be balanced while having diversity. Magic doesn't require the reduction of all pieces of the colour pie to one, nor does GW.

Care to cite some evidence from the dev's comments regarding any of the game updates to support that? It's pretty obvious to me that the overwhelming majority of updates have been geared towards the PvP environment. If you really want to convince me otherwise, it will take more than flippant comments with no support.

The problem with saying the game can be balanced "to the extent to which it is required" is that the "extent" is an arbitrary position, everyone has a different opinion on what it is, and no matter how far you go, someone will want to push it farther. Other games have done this before, and they have "balanced" themselves to their own destruction.

Bride of the Atom · Apr 08, 2007, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Phantom

My magic eight ball said "It is decidedly so."

Hey, who can argue with the magic eight ball?

My magic eight ball didn't really say anything because I've had it since I was, like, nine years old and most of the liquid has evaporated.

However! I'd love to try out a trial event. I don't invest enough time playing to go out and buy it right away. And all of this nerfing business has irritated me over the last week. There's nothing like creating an awesome build, taking a 3-4 month break, and coming back to find that your build has lost its zazz.

Winstar · Apr 08, 2007, 06:10 AM // 06:10

I've mentioned only a few things in previous posts and more things in other threads, but it gets tiring repeating yourself when no one cares to listen because their minds are already made up due to the mass hysteria of another skill update. But I will elaborate.

Lets consider first, the content of GW as a game. With each expansion the majority of the content introduced into the game is geared towards the casual and pve player. A new continent to explore, new monsters, a new storyline, new weapons, new armour, new pets, new elite mission areas, new classes. In each expansion, PvP players pay the same money to get classes they don't want - something that PvE'ers get so scratch that- some new maps which screw up the game and new skills - which PvE'ers also get so scratch that. So. The vast majority of content that comes with this game is already PvE realted. Along with this there are event weekends, happy terrific gold drop weekends, new PvE content like updated bosses, new unique drops, and even lip movement in the cinematic sequences... etc etc.

The _one_ thing that PvP players require and have not received up until now is skill balance and some restructuring of the PvP formats which have remained the same since the start of this game. So while for years PvE'ers recieved updates and content and fresh game ideas PvPers played the same formats except with increasingly degenerate skills which were introduced because of improper testing. So now, FINALLY, this is being addressed and PvE players like YOU are up in arms and moanging that Anet doesn't love you. Excuse us if we respond a little harshly to your empty bitching.

In the end please refer to the BIG NEWS about GW's future in Pcgamer. That article contained all of 2 sentences regarding competative PvP...hmm.

Anet knows PvE is its largest player base, and they've known that for some time. Don't kid yourself into thinking that because PvP gets some long needed attention that you been left behind. Instead enjoy your life as the spoiled child of the GW family.

Please take your head out of your ass. Its not to late, really. Really I mean it.

Edit* I like PvE btw (omg)

Winstar · Apr 08, 2007, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird71

The problem with saying the game can be balanced "to the extent to which it is required" is that the "extent" is an arbitrary position, everyone has a different opinion on what it is, and no matter how far you go, someone will want to push it farther. Other games have done this before, and they have "balanced" themselves to their own destruction.

Thanks for the wonderful slippery slope argument. If we start trying to balance things, eventually we'll just quit GW and download a freeware version of chesstmaster 3000 or go play WOW. Game balance is possible, but its up to the designers to impliment and develop the vision they have for they game, with of course the consideration of the community. The problem is that there has never been a strong sense of what that direction is supposed to be. The problem isn't striving to achieve some kind of game balance, its not knowing what that is supposed to be. Again, Magic seems to be a terribly successful competative game with at least an equal degree of diveristy as GW which has acheived a degree of balance. So...it can be done and we're starting to move towards it. Sorry.

blackbird71 · Apr 08, 2007, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

I've mentioned only a few things in previous posts and more things in other threads, but it gets tiring repeating yourself when no one cares to listen because their minds are already made up due to the mass hysteria of another skill update. But I will elaborate.

Lets consider first, the content of GW as a game. With each expansion the majority of the content introduced into the game is geared towards the casual and pve player. A new continent to explore, new monsters, a new storyline, new weapons, new armour, new pets, new elite mission areas, new classes. In each expansion, PvP players pay the same money to get classes they don't want - something that PvE'ers get so scratch that- some new maps which screw up the game and new skills - which PvE'ers also get so scratch that. So. The vast majority of content that comes with this game is already PvE realted. Along with this there are event weekends, happy terrific gold drop weekends, new PvE content like updated bosses, new unique drops, and even lip movement in the cinematic sequences... etc etc.

The _one_ thing that PvP players require and have not received up until now is skill balance and some restructuring of the PvP formats which have remained the same since the start of this game. So while for years PvE'ers recieved updates and content and fresh game ideas PvPers played the same formats except with increasingly degenerate skills which were introduced because of improper testing. So now, FINALLY, this is being addressed and PvE players like YOU are up in arms and moanging that Anet doesn't love you. Excuse us if we respond a little harshly to your empty bitching.

In the end please refer to the BIG NEWS about GW's future in Pcgamer. That article contained all of 2 sentences regarding competative PvP...hmm.

Anet knows PvE is its largest player base, and they've known that for some time. Don't kid yourself into thinking that because PvP gets some long needed attention that you been left behind. Instead enjoy your life as the spoiled child of the GW family.

Please take your head out of your ass. Its not to late, really. Really I mean it.

Edit* I like PvE btw (omg)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

Thanks for the wonderful slippery slope argument. If we start trying to balance things, eventually we'll just quit GW and download a freeware version of chesstmaster 3000 or go play WOW. Game balance is possible, but its up to the designers to impliment and develop the vision they have for they game, with of course the consideration of the community. The problem is that there has never been a strong sense of what that direction is supposed to be. The problem isn't striving to achieve some kind of game balance, its not knowing what that is supposed to be. Again, Magic seems to be a terribly successful competative game with at least an equal degree of diveristy as GW which has acheived a degree of balance. So...it can be done and we're starting to move towards it. Sorry.

It's late, and like you, I grow tired of repeating things I have stated in other posts. Unlike you, I will refrain from vulgar comments and foul language as a form of argument. If you truly care what I have to say on the matter, you can read my previous posts here and here.

Before you complain about PvP players paying for PvE content which they don't want (presumably), maybe you should remember that the GW online store offers PvP editions of each campaign, giving you all the PvP skills without the need to purchase the PvE content or unlock any of it through the PvE game. As for the holidays, special weekend events, and "lip movement" (sorry, I had to laugh at that one), while that stuff may be nice, it's fluff, and has absolutely nothing to do with gameplay mechanics, which is what I'm concerned with. You can hold all the special events in the world, but if the mechanics of the game have been torn to pieces, it won't do a bit of good.

You're welcome by the way, a slippery slope is a valid argument as long as it is a true possibility FYI. Am I against having some level of balance withing PvP? Not necessarily. What I am against is the seeking of balance as the driving force behind the majority of changes being made to a game, and such changes being frequently made without concern or regard to how it affects the rest of the game. I have seen this path literally destroy other games, so I'm not just making this up. I wouldn't be so adamant about it if I didn't feel it was a real danger that I had seen others fall to before.

On thing I will give you, you're the first person I've seen on your side of the argument who has admitted that most support for the game comes from PvE players. That's a little detail that most PvP balance proponents usually like to ignore or contest.

Also, if I understand you correctly, you seem to agree that Anet does not seem to have a clear goal for what their ultimate "balance" is to be. Frankly, this just adds more weight to my argument. They don't know where they're going, but they'll keep trying to get there, try to create that "balance" by constantly tweaking the game. When that happens without a clear goal, you get the exact situation I outlined in my other posts (see links above).

You continually mention "Magic," which is a fine game, and I think a great example. Yes, it does have a wide diversity of ways to play, and does have a relative balance. This balance does not exist because all the cards are equal, or even similar, but rather because every player has an equal chance of access to all available cards. It's up to the player to create his/her deck, some combinations are strong, others are weak. An individual card may be incredibly powerful, but what matters is how it is used by the player. If a player manages to create a combination of cards that overwhelms the competition and simply can't be beat, what happens? Do the manufacturers instantly recall all copies of the cards that make up that combination? Do they immediately change the text and functionality of those cards? No, of course not, because the game is still balanced, as any other player has the same opportunity to use the same tactics. Even then, if the combination does persist and becomes a real problem, they'll change it with the next edition, they won't alter the current game. I think Guild Wars can learn a lot about what makes a game "balanced" from Magic.

So yes, balance can be achieved, if it is made clear what that balance is, and take into account the fact that every change to balance one part of the game tips the scales in another part. The big picture must be kept at the forefront, and all changes must take it into heavy consideration. However, if GW continues in it's current path, seeking the undefined, it may well go the way of games that have fallen before it.

In short, I'll agree with you that it can be done, but I disagree that GW is currently moving toward it. You can't move toward something that has no defined position.

P.S. You've obviously put some thought into your arguments, and I admire that. A word of advice: leave out the personal insults and attacks if you really want anyone to take your arguments seriously.

Hien · Apr 08, 2007, 09:20 AM // 09:20

Only GW

100% I will purchase

Cracko · Apr 08, 2007, 11:14 AM // 11:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Shiz

PvE doesn't need to be balanced unless it's something obviously and OVERLY unbalanced which isn't very often.

If all PvErs think like you I'm sorry but Anet is going to be in ruins very quickly. They've ruined PvP and you PvE people think all they care about is PvP...they're losing everybody right and left.

Reading this thread, it seems they still have a large amount of people behind them.

vaxmor · Apr 08, 2007, 11:25 AM // 11:25

I have GW:EotN pre ordered at EB.

Pandora's box · Apr 08, 2007, 11:30 AM // 11:30

I always wait (for online games) until the game is out and there is feedback from the gaming community.

Possible reasons to buy it: the PvE only skills - but only if they can be used in older campaigns too. Or teams with 7 heroes instead of 3.

Possible reasons for not buying it: if its an extended elite area where you don't stand any change with a party of heroes/henchmen I won't buy it. Not to mention area's where you are not allowed to go without human teammates.

Myrkwid · Apr 08, 2007, 11:48 AM // 11:48

I'm waiting. The way they took the game is the exact opposite of what I would have liked (I would have never implemented this complete dispiteful pvp-only junk into the game, for example, and they even expanded it with every chapter). I already told my guild (or what is remaining of it) that NF was the last arenanet product I purchased. Well, maybe I make an exclusion with GW:EN, as it is the last addon for GW1, but they have to give me reasons to buy it. 18 dungeons full of highlvlcritter that drop the same crap like in any other highendarea just with different skins won't make me waste 30€.

And that's all we know currently. Races that aren't playable are no new feature...

Etta · Apr 08, 2007, 12:02 PM // 12:02

If it's going to be £20 then I'll buy it right now. I'll buy another copy for my GF as well and I'll play it and enjoy it for what it is.

Envious · Apr 08, 2007, 12:09 PM // 12:09

I usually get "testimonials" from the gaming community then from a decision will be made. But, most likely I will get it.

Dreikki · Apr 08, 2007, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Fo sho.

For sure.

Evilsod · Apr 08, 2007, 12:13 PM // 12:13

I'd buy it. GW2 on the other hand is looking like a WoW wannabe... so prob not there.

empressdonna · Apr 08, 2007, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Hmm.. I am undecided, since I am still sort of new to the GW world.

I think I would wait until I have played GW, then buy factions or nightfall *and the nightfall bonus cd of course* before even considering getting GW:EN

Plus, I would like to know more about it.

Alex Morningstar · Apr 08, 2007, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Yes.

Hopefully all the crybabies (whether pvp or pve) that refuse to adapt or I don't know... try and have some fun won't buy it though. Seriously, all the crying, petition making, fighting over balance or which side of the game is better, blah blah after every damn update starts to get a little annoying; sadly enough it is in game too.

Might make for some lonely game play, but that's what guildies are for anyway.